Curse

I Jonas I · Feb 26, 2010, 02:37 PM // 14:37

The metagame before the update consisted of triple warrior, some paragon/dom mes balanced/ fast cast smiter stuff and the occasional mindblast split. Pretty much every match that I played post update against a serious opponent they were running some sort of hexway (with the exception of a sinsplit build that abuses the overpowered Seeping Wound). All in all GvG went from relaxing and pretty fun to just exasperating and not at all fun.

FoxBat · Feb 26, 2010, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Serious opponents eh? These builds must be so awesome that the top #100 completely missed them...

I'll concede seeping wound but all they did to hexes was nerf pious, so

. Hexes were always much better at lower levels of play, the update didn't introduce that.

Robster Lobster · Feb 26, 2010, 04:48 PM // 16:48

If hexes are too popular then its more likely to be a result of the smiter midliner being nerfed out of the game than any other buff.

(apart from maybe seeping wound)

Fap · Feb 26, 2010, 05:24 PM // 17:24

no idea. the more important question is why on earth would they ever buff spirits?

I Jonas I · Feb 26, 2010, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Hexes were always much better at lower levels of play, the update didn't introduce that.

...and you act like that isn't a big deal? How are the players at a mid to low level of play supposed to get better if they just get their face pushed in by hexway 5 minutes into the match every match?

There's a couple of pretty easy ways to make hexway viable but more balanced at lower levels of play. The main issue that I see with hexes is that they do double duty: they are both extremely defensive and extremely offensive at the same time. I.E. putting empathy on a warrior essentially prevents them from frenzying (defense) and makes them take damage when they attack (offensive). Since your team can only take a certain number of hex removals, the more hexes the other team takes the longer (on average) each hex will last, and the more their effects will stack.

I don't have a problem with hexes being used as a viable pressure, but a team shouldn't be able to pump out hexes indefinitely. There has to be a way to stop teams from dishing out all of these hexes, through either energy denial or interrupts.

However, you can't shut down these characters through interrupts, because fast casting and skills like Mantra of concentration prevent teams from being able to interrupt dangerous hexes. This breaks the balance inherent in each class's skill set, because skills such as barbs go from being bad because they have a 2s cast, to overpowered because they have a 1.2s cast.

And the energy management on these hex bars is just stupidly good. On the Me/N barbs bar you have drain enchantment, ether phantom and drain deillusions, which provide the bar with some scary amount of energy per minute so it can just shit out hexes indescriminately. The same thing on the VoR dom mesmer, which has power drain and drain enchantment to fuel it's superpowered hexes; and the cultists fervor bar, which can literally spam all of it's skills on recharge.

To make hexes balanced I would make the following changes:

- Make Faintheartedness have the person attack 25% slower and last 5s shorter
- Tone down Empathy, Backfire and Insidious Parasite's damage by ~20%
- Make Cultist's Fervor end after 1....8...10 spells, and make cover enchantments for it less viable
- Make barbed signet's bleeding duration max out at around 8s (which with a barbed spear it is more like 11s - still 66 damage for free)
- make fast casting only affect mesmer skills (not that hard)
- revert mark of fury buff -- with this skill, barbs, corrupt enchants/rip, and defile defenses in the same attribute line there is nothing stopping warriors in a hexway team from just getting on a target and training it to the ground
- smiter's boon all anti-interrupt skills. I know that you just nerfed them, but as long as they still see play I am going to be upset.
- make ether phantom a 2 second cast, make drain dellusions a 1s cast.
- Make power drain return 7 less energy
- slightly increase drain enchantment's recharge
- make hundred blades do typeless damage in order to not stack with barbs

Fap · Feb 26, 2010, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Jonas I

- Tone down Empathy, Backfire and Insidious Parasite's damage by ~20%

I'd actually up the recharges there by 5, 10 and 5 seconds.

*lemming* · Feb 26, 2010, 07:57 PM // 19:57

For quite a while now, hexes have been the fallback build after a new update. I don't see how this is any different.

Also, as FoxBat pointed out, I haven't seen a single top 100 team running hexes since the update.

I Jonas I · Feb 26, 2010, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

For quite a while now, hexes have been the fallback build after a new update. I don't see how this is any different.

Also, as FoxBat pointed out, I haven't seen a single top 100 team running hexes since the update.

Pictures removed for failing to obscure names - Ariena

sir hepe · Feb 26, 2010, 09:38 PM // 21:38

One mesmer makes a build a hexway? o.o

I Jonas I · Feb 26, 2010, 10:42 PM // 22:42

well, okay. So apparently there's nazi mods that think I'm trolling the said guilds that I posted a screenshot of. I'm not, but I'll edit out names in this screenshot just to prove a point

MaaKotka · Feb 26, 2010, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Jonas I

well, okay. So apparently there's nazi mods that think I'm trolling the said guilds that I posted a screenshot of. I'm not, but I'll edit out names in this screenshot just to prove a point

They used hexway allright, but they didn't use a single newly buffed skill or I missed something obsing that match.

*lemming* · Feb 26, 2010, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Ok, one match which started after my post.

I still don't see how this is a problem.

Killed u man · Feb 27, 2010, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Ok, one match which started after my post.

I still don't see how this is a problem.

He lost to hexway, you're missing the point.

And Jonas, hexway is a problem, noone denies that. Especially with skills such as Pious concentration, Mantra of Resolve/concentration STILL be more than viable, a good hexway will be able to steamroll you (and outsplit you) if you don't have the right anti. (Obviously meaning hex removal)

Tough, with LoD nerfed, I don't think it will go away faster than previous times, tough metas will settle. Just wait a couple of days for people to start using party heal bars/hex remove bars again, and hexway will simply vanish. (Not because it gets beaten by it, but because it sets the new "balanced standard" which everyone then runs)

I Jonas I · Feb 27, 2010, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

He lost to hexway, you're missing the point.

And Jonas, hexway is a problem, noone denies that. Especially with skills such as Pious concentration, Mantra of Resolve/concentration STILL be more than viable, a good hexway will be able to steamroll you (and outsplit you) if you don't have the right anti. (Obviously meaning hex removal)

Tough, with LoD nerfed, I don't think it will go away faster than previous times, tough metas will settle. Just wait a couple of days for people to start using party heal bars/hex remove bars again, and hexway will simply vanish. (Not because it gets beaten by it, but because it sets the new "balanced standard" which everyone then runs)

I'm honestly not sure if you're trolling, but if you are it isn't appreciated.

and obviously I am speccing for it, yeah. I don't know what I'm going to spec it with yet, but I'm not going to run 4 physicals like was meta prior to the skill update

@lemming: didn't I see you running a smite monk on imperial with YMCA? I feel like that's just replacing one evil with another

Div · Feb 27, 2010, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

They used hexway allright, but they didn't use a single newly buffed skill or I missed something obsing that match.

OP still hasn't responded to this key argument.

So how were hexes buffed again?

Hexes are strong against lower levels of play because people are too dumb to coordinate and time removals, cancel frenzy under empathy, or stop casting when backfire's on you. Regardless of how much you'd get stomped at the lower levels of play, the game is not (and should not) be balanced around low/mid level play. In fact, there's rarely anything that's not balanced around the highest level of competition.

It's just like arguing that zerglings/DTs/cannons/vultures are too OP and need to be nerfed because starting players can't deal with the cheesing.

I Jonas I · Feb 27, 2010, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Just because hexway has always been overpowered does mean that it should be overpowered, so I don't really see what your argument is.

lutz · Feb 27, 2010, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Jonas I

Just because hexway has always been overpowered does mean that it should be overpowered, so I don't really see what your argument is.

Hexes/pressure are/is strong when you don't shut them down or when you don't have enough healing.
Spikes are strong when you don't shut them down or when you don't catch them.
Split is strong when you don't coordinate movement correctly.

I Jonas I · Feb 27, 2010, 08:10 AM // 08:10

except that spikes and split take a lot of coordination, strategy and skill. hexes just take tab + space. Big difference

Jeydra · Feb 27, 2010, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Do you think ANet should nerf Warrior autoattack damage? After all, it's just tab (or c) + space ...

*lemming* · Feb 27, 2010, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Why didn't I close this earlier?